SULE AYGOREN: Tell me a little bit about how you got your start in the business, and was this always what you wanted to do?

MARYANNE GILMARTIN: I believe in serendipity, and there's no greater example of that than my profession. I won two scholarships coming out of college, and they allowed young, eager college grads to take up a stint in government and experiment before they ran off into the private sector. It was under Mayor Koch's program called the Urban Fellows Program, and I won both a summer and an academic year. I went to the economic development offices of the City of New York. They were building out the West Side of Manhattan, the South Ferry, a project on the East River. It wasn't anything I would have thought to do on my own; I was on my way to law school. I elected to do a fellowship there for the summer, thinking that in September I would use the second fellowship to do something different.

I like to say that I got real estate in my veins that summer, and I realized it was one of the most fascinating experiences that I had. It was during that period of time, without a doubt, that I became a developer.

MELISSA ROMAN BURCH: As a child, people would say to me, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" I would say, "A New Yorker." I always had a strong passion to be a part of this city, and that really is the lens for which I kind of approach this business.

I studied government in college, and then went on to business school to get my MBA. I've always had a strong interest in public policy and in business, and in many ways real estate is kind of the intersection of those two passions. This city is really an incredible opportunity to kind of experience what it means to be in a public-private development partnership, trying to address some of the pressing issues that are going to change this city, and make it a better place.

So that's really the lens from which I am drawn into this business and this company in particular, and my experience over the last ten years in this business, has been all about that intersection. So whether it's affordable housing or economic development, those are the drivers of my passion in real estate.

AYGOREN: Development has always been a gritty, mostly male-dominated business. Did either of you encounter any challenges in your careers, be it bias or people underestimating you?

GILMARTIN: Being underestimated is one of the great benefits of being a woman. People have low expectations and you can blow them out of the water. It's amazing what you can accomplish, especially with a powerful platform. This is a development company, and the leadership here is willing to create an inclusive culture—pick the person for the job—allowed Melissa and myself to show what we can do. We're deeply supported. Development has historically been a dynasty business in New York, and it's a place where you don't find a lot of women at levels of power.

One of the reasons I'm proud to run the company with Bruce Ratner today is that it does create an opportunity to change that. It's a great opportunity and responsibility for us, as we look to mentor the next generation of developers, to continue this tradition of meritocracy.

BURCH: One of the most exciting things this company—and you're starting to see it develop more broadly among the development companies—is that women really aren't tokens in this business anymore and they're more willing to support each other. It's not about just being the only person in the room, though sometimes I am the only woman in the room. But it's good to know you can really be part of a movement that is being created around women in real estate and the workforce in general.

AYGOREN: One major trend I've noticed in the past few years is that the face of CRE seems to be changing. It isn't so much about men or women anymore; it's a whole breed of young people who seem to have the same goals and priorities, regardless of gender. Are you seeing that?

GILMARTIN: When I went into real estate, I like to affectionately say it was like one step above being a car salesman. People didn't look at real estate development the way it's looked at now and real estate just wasn't a place to which talent flocked. In some ways, that created enormous opportunities for me because the competitive field was perhaps a little shallower if you were not from a dynasty or a family business.

Having said that, the resumes that come across my desk these days are like objects of beauty. It's like people, almost from the cradle, want to become a real estate developer. Of course, they don't know anything, but they've trained their lives to have this beautiful resume where they are completely ready to learn. The problem with development is that you have to build to know, and in this town it takes almost a decade to do anything very substantial. You end up needing a runway of sorts to accomplish what we do, and that's why the platform and the relationships you have are so important.

BURCH: This is definitely an apprenticeship business, something you have to learn by doing, by watching and by rolling up your. Having somebody willing to sponsor you, to take you on in that apprentice role has been a huge boost to me, not only in real estate development but in almost every single stage in my life. This is certainly not a job for a timid person.

I actually consider MaryAnne to be a part of the new generation we're talking about because in many ways she's brought a lot of flexibility to the way the company is run. She's worked hard for this, but she's a great example of how you can try to have a really robust family life and a robust professional life. She's coined a motto, “You're not at work, you're on work.” Technology and employers' willingness to let people work from wherever has helped immensely. I know that I can drop my son off at camp in the morning and get right on a call. I don't need to book it all the way over to my office.

GILMARTIN: In the old days, you had to be at your desk. I was able to test those notions, because they believed in me enough to sort of let me try it. I have a 15-year-old son, and I probably was one of the early trailblazers in trying to show up as a mother in the same way that I wanted to show up as a professional.

I call it a seesaw, because it's never really a balance. Every once in a while you get it right, and then it's out of whack again. I let myself off the hook on the balance, though, because I think part of what we do to ourselves is look for this fictitious sense of balance. For instance, I do my best work after 11 pm. I'm willing to stay up and do it. I have enormous energy and passion around the work, but I need to be that way as a parent. So if I can get home, break bread with my children and put them to sleep, and then get back on, I'm happy to do it. Sleep is overrated.

I know what makes me tick, and I've been able to figure out. It's not a perfect science, but I feel in leading by example for the other women here, so they can recognize it didn't have to cost me all those things to get to the place where I'm a CEO. That's - - powerful, because nobody wants to wake up in 20 years and look back and your life and say, "What did I do with my life?"

You can't possibly expect somebody who comes to this place with a passion, who also wants to be a passionate parent, to turn it off. So you can't subordinate those feelings, because it's the very stuff that makes us really good at what we do. Once technology kicked in and I had an iPad, a Blackberry and an iPhone, my productivity grew exponentially. At the same time, I'm never going to miss a recital or an awards ceremony.

AYGOREN: What do you admire about each other?

BURCH: MaryAnne has been hugely inspiring in my time at Forest City. I've actually been here for ten years, and it took me almost five years to really get a chance to work with her. She's got the presence and the poise and is smarter than anyone I've ever met. She has incredible vision; she never takes the easy way just because that's the fastest way to get there. She's really thinking big about our projects, our people, what this company can do as part of the civic fabric of this city. We're not just putting up buildings. We're transforming blocks, knitting together neighborhoods. She's incredible at reinvention.

MaryAnne has never, ever seen a closed door. There are a lot of challenges and setbacks in our business, but she's extraordinary staying optimistic and looking for opportunities. Lastly, and probably most importantly, she has incredible humanity. That matters, maybe even more now that she's CEO. She knows how to motivate and inspire. She's very involved with everyone here, and I think it's because she believes that if you can kind of thrive personally, that will set you up to give you the grounding to thrive professionally.

GILMARTIN: Wow, I'll take it. Let me start by saying I'm a big proponent of succession planning. When I became CEO, I had to choose who would sit in my seat when I moved up. I spent over a year looking at a pool of extraordinarily talented people, men and women, who could possibly take over my former responsibilities. I kept coming up with the same result—Melissa—because she was the total package.

She has a level of sophistication, appreciation and understanding for the business that's powerful. She's loyal. She's got amazing communication skills and just a feel for the business. She's a one-of-a-kind. When you find that, and then you realize that I could have that as my wingman as I try to figure out my next move, you take it. It's an amazing gift to me to have that ability to lean on, rely on and empower someone like Melissa.

AYGOREN: We've all seen the reports about how women are “better, or worse,” than men in business for various reasons. Do you think that women bring something different to the table than men?

BURCH: I will say this—I have been completely amazed at how motherhood has changed my entire approach to work. I think that I've gotten much better at what I do. I used to think if you put in enough work, if you tried hard enough, if you prepared enough, you could somehow get all the work out perfectly. Having kids has made me realize that you just can't control it all, even if you're prepared. You cannot control all outcomes. But it's also taught me the importance of relying on people and on relationships. It really does take a village, to both raise a child and get a project built.

GILMARTIN: That's well said. I also think this idea of collaboration is fundamental to being a parent and a mother. It's also so important in the business of development. Women tend to, by their nature, collaborate and we're in a business where collaboration is fundamentally a key to success. It's a natural process for us to look to each other for our strengths, and to recognize that the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. It's like an orchestra. Nobody's trying to do anybody else's job and it's incredible what you can accomplish together. I think women are particularly comfortable with that, because it's how they figured out their lives in so many other ways.

AYGOREN: The landscape of this city is always changing, and you have a hands-on role in that. How have you seen the industry evolve and where do you see it going?

GILMARTIN: Development is so much more of a sophisticated process. I think of us as civic developers, so we approach our work from the ground up. We think about the connection of the building to the pedestrian, the way the building looks in the sky, how it contributes to the life of the city. The fact is that architecture is a great, noble profession; development has not been viewed as such. The caricature of a developer is not a very flattering one. I think that we, with others in this city, have changed the perception because the level of pride in what we do is so high.

We tend to really tackle very complicated, large-scale urban development projects in New York City, and with it comes a great opportunity. We have contributed three great edifices to this city in one decade—the New York Times Building, the Frank Gehry Building and the Barclays Center. Those are three landmark buildings. For a developer, you hope to get one of those in a career. We aim to be super-responsible in the way that we work. We may not get it right, but we are certainly, every day that we work, trying to get it right.

FAST FACTS

What are you reading now?
GILMARTIN: Charlotte Bronte's Jane Eyre, because my son has to read it this summer. He chose a class called, "Women on the Edge." He's 15, so I'm going to take that as a little bit of a shout out to Mom.
BURCH: I read three or four books at once, though it takes me a year to get through them. I keep them right at my bedside table and I read a few pages of something every night. Right now, I'm reading Other People's Money by Charles Bagli. I also have Niall Ferguson's The Great Degeneration.

Favorite vacation spot?
BURCH: Hands down, Buenos Aires, Argentina.
GILMARTIN: I love to travel, but right now I'm in a place where I just want to find time to decompress with my family. We have a little sliver of paradise in the North Fork, Long Island, where we spend a lot of time

Favorite movie?
GILMARTIN: Breakfast at Tiffany's.
BURCH: Ferris Bueller's Day Off. It just reminds me of being young, carefree and irresponsible.

Favorite food?
GILMARTIN: Beets. I love beets.
BURCH: Anything Spanish. Tapas, especially shrimp in garlic sauce.

What would people be surprised to find out about you?
GILMARTIN: Early in my career here, they had a gym in our office complex. I'd get frustrated because the aerobics class was always so easy, and I'd just waste an hour of my time and not even break a sweat. I decided, well, I'm just going to learn how to do this myself. And I became a substitute fitness instructor, as a side gig to my job here in the early 1990s.
BURCH: Other than a New Yorker, when I was younger I wanted to be Broadway star. I love karaoke, and I actually carry a playlist of songs on my phone at all times. And I only pick songs that make me sound good and are crowd pleasers. Jon Bon Jovi is always a major crowd pleaser.